Doctor Who - Spoilers!

[wookster]

Am I the only one that wants to see Jack Harkness return?

I sincerely hope you are!

 

[wookster]

Moffat loves a deus ex machina doesn't he?
I hate Moffat.

But to be fair, Tolkien did exactly that wit the Dead Men of Dunharrow... write yourself into a corner and you have to 'wing it'. The more I think of it, the more awful I realise this whole 'Time of the Doctor' became! Are people really that much in denial?

 

[JonWes]

Why couldn't they just be killed off?

Because most people seem to love them.

But to be fair, Tolkien did exactly that wit the Dead Men of Dunharrow... write yourself into a corner and you have to 'wing it'. The more I think of it, the more awful I realise this whole 'Time of the Doctor' became! Are people really that much in denial?

I'm not sure I've seen any more or less of deus ex machina than in RTD's run, to be honest. It seems a little par for the course sometimes. I'm sure they'd consider it "narrative economy." There are only a few times when its really annoyed me, though.

I really enjoyed TotD. I watched it again the other day, and I still find a ton of things to enjoy. I realize that, as a Christmas episode, there are just some things the production team feels the need to put in there. And, to be honest, I really enjoyed the stuff with Clara's family and Christmas. It's the kind of silliness that can make Doctor Who unique among other sci-fi series, and in a Christmas episode it just seems more okay, for whatever reason.

It was nice to have a counter-balance for the more emotional bits. And I thought there were plenty - the death of Handles was great. Amy's last words to the Doctor, and Clara's reaction to it. The build-up to the regeneration with Clara going into the clock tower and the scene that followed was great, too.

I thought the whole town of Christmas and that concept was half-baked, but it didn't ruin it for me. I think there were wonderful parts that didn't quite add up to a wholly satisfying whole. But I was still overall happy with it. In a weird way, although I wasn't sure it was the best episode for Matt to go out on, it did kind of exemplify his era (and its uneven overall nature) well.

 

[The Mike]

But Hurt isn't considered a 'Doctor'...11 even says that in the Christmas ep. So Capaldi is the 13th regeneration, but the 12th 'Doctor'. And I don't remember 14 coming up at all in the Christmas ep?

You are misremembering.

Hurt's not a "real" Doctor and neither is the meta crisis Tennant. In the Christmas special, they even made reference to eleven and twelve in the little poem. Whatever theories fans might want to put forward, it's obvious that the BBC and Moffat consider Capaldi the 12th.

He is and they don't.

People are just over thinking the numbering thing. Capaldi is the 12th Doctor. Hurt is the War Doctor. The Meta-Crisis Regeneration is still the 10th Doctor.

Not if you're going by what the actual episode says:

In the Christmas special when Clara asks him about regenerating and pointing out that he is the Eleventh, he replies:

Are we forgetting Captain Grumpy? Huh? I didn't call myself The Doctor during the Time War but it was still a regeneration

To which she replies okay so then you're number twelve. To which he replies:

Number Ten once regenerated and kept the same face - I had vanity issues at the time. Twelve Regenerations Clara, I can't ever do it again.

47 minutes in for those who want to check. If you go off of Moffat who wrote the episode and IS the show runner, he has officially written Hurt into Number 9 and The Meta-Crisis Doctor into 12. Which makes Capaldi Number 14, according to BOTH the BBC and Moffat.

Now if you're talking fans? They'll call him Twelve. If you are talking merchandise they'll call him whatever the hell they want, Hurt's Sonic offered up is called "The Other Doctor's Sonic" which by the way is a pain when you're calling to look for it, but realistically the shuffling of numbers is as new as November with it being somewhat finalized in December.

I wouldn't expect anything to be publicly changed. Moffat has gone on record saying that

“However, there is no such character and never has been as the Eleventh Doctor. He’s just the Doctor, that’s what he calls himself. The numbering doesn’t matter."

Moffat or the BBC isn't stupid they aren't going to rebrand and renumber everything, they aren't going to tell their thousands of fans "Oh by the way you're wrong about the numbering so let's call them this", BUT he has done it. Matt Smith is Number Thirteen by his own word, by Moffat's own pen and by the BBC's own production.

Which makes Capaldi Number Fourteen if you go by the episodes alone. Will anyone call him that? No, you've got a better chance having people call him Two Point One but I guarantee you that BBC won't be correcting people when articles and people call Capaldi Number Twelve but I also predict that officially they'll just call him "The Doctor" without numbering and most will just refer to him as Capaldi as they do with Smith and Tennant before him.

 

[ChaserFan]

I sincerely hope you are!

You're probably right.

 

[pixletwin]

The numbering isn't important. The Doctor only ever introduces himself as the Doctor. For merchandising purposes Matt Smith is and always will be the 11th Doctor. Capaldi is the 12th.

John Hurt is the Ninth incarnation. But he is the War Doctor. That is his official designation. Capaldi will not be merchandised as 2.1 or the 14th Doctor. He is the 12th.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006q2x0/features/doctors

Soon Capaldi will be added as The 12th Doctor".

Anything else is your own personal fan canon, which is ok, but call it what it is.

 

[JonWes]

The numbering isn't important. The Doctor only ever introduces himself as the Doctor. For merchandising purposes Matt Smith is and always will be the 11th Doctor. Capaldi is the 12th.

John Hurt is the Ninth incarnation. But he is the War Doctor. That is his official designation. Capaldi will not be merchandised as 2.1 or the 14th Doctor. He is the 12th.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006q2x0/features/doctors

Soon Capaldi will be added as The 12th Doctor".

Anything else is your own personal fan canon, which is ok, but call it what it is.

Fans can debate it however they like, but officially Capaldi will be 12 on merch, I'm sure of it. He's still the 12th Doctor. Hurt doesn't count, and 10 just stayed 10. The number of regenerations used up is immaterial.

 

[The Mike]

Anything else is your own personal fan canon, which is ok, but call it what it is.

Only it's not. It's using the numbering from the BBC and Moffat himself. It's not the same as Star Wars fans arguing in the EU stories, it's taken directly from aired episodes. You can't get any LESS fan canon then that.

What it DOES do is bring up and interesting thing. If George Lucas wrote it then Star Wars fans accepted it, it was canon. When he gives his blessings like with The Clone Wars, again canon. What is interesting is while Moffat didn't create Doctor Who, he is as close as we've got to a comparison right now and whole he tinkered with the numbering and the regenerations and essentially extended the show as far as they've wanted, people simply choose to ignore and that's powerful. When the project is so massive and so well loved that it endures to the point of people simply ignoring things and moving along and still enjoying.

That's kind of neat. That is something that wouldn't happen with many other licenses.

As for Capaldi, he is 12, will be merchandised that way because it's easier and essentially smarter not to confuse even if it contradicts what the show is saying and that's not a problem but doesn't make the events of the show any less frustrating for some.

Meh. Just ignore me and move on, they'll be plenty to pick apart in our loooong wait until Fall.

 

[pixletwin]

....Meh. Just ignore me and move on, they'll be plenty to pick apart in our loooong wait until Fall.

Oh dear lord you're right about that.

So speaking of nerd arguements about Doctor numbering... anyone have anything to say about Brain of Morbius?

 

[pixletwin]

Also the more I think about it, Moffat refers to Capaldi at least twice as Twelve in Time of the Doctor. Once in the nursery rhyme and again as he is regenerating atop the bell tower the clock strikes twelve.

 

[lerath666]

His 1st incarnation (Hartnell) grew old and died due to old age, its just since then the Doctor's been killed after being in that body for only a relatively short time. The exception's being #8, he aged around 25 years before his regeneration and War who seems to have aged around 40 years.

They made the Radio dramas Canon with "the night of theDoctor"

He spent 600 Years as Paul Mcgann/ The 8th doctor

 

[sueworld]

Am I the only one that wants to see Jack Harkness return?

Nope, I'd love him back. Would brighten things up no end.

I sincerely hope you are!

 

[Kamandi]

Harkness was fun on DW, not so much in TW.

 

[FrodoEyes]

I want the Master back. Can't believe Matt Smith never faced him!

 

[The Mike]

Also the more I think about it, Moffat refers to Capaldi at least twice as Twelve in Time of the Doctor. Once in the nursery rhyme and again as he is regenerating atop the bell tower the clock strikes twelve.

Well, I think it's difficult to have the clock strike thirteen.

I think the only concrete thing that we can gather from the Doctor numbering and renumbering is that Moffat likes to **** with the fans. I think the consensus will be just to call him "Twelve" and have the nerds argue about show canon until their heads explode. I seriously doubt the majority of fans especially since Who has had a new infusion in the past few years will care, most simply refer to the actor's last name over number anyway.

 

[Kamandi]

I want the Master back. Can't believe Matt Smith never faced him!

I'm glad they gave the character a rest. When he re-appears I hope they go with a more classic rendition of the character.

 

[Ghost of QG]

The Master cannot be a villain of the week. His appearances need to be epic in nature

 

[TheObsoleteMan]

The Master cannot be a villain of the week.

Tell that to season 8.

 

[JonWes]

I hope we see Captain Jack and the Master again. I'd also love a PROPER Sontaran story!

 

[The Mike]

I want a scary Dalek story. They've been kind of reduced to jokes in recent seasons. Even in the brief appearances in the last series they weren't that scary just in abundance.

I wouldn't mind a few Time Lords reappearing especially since Gallifrey was technically saved so in the time between 8 and 12 there has to have been a couple that have snuck out, it'd be interesting to see a few that we've never seen or even a few that were thought to be dead and are now alive because the change in time but I don't want to see The Master.

I think the character like that needs to be a huge arc that goes the entire season and would be kind of downgraded with a new Doctor and the usual trend of reintroducing the audiences to the villains with each Doctor. If Capaldi sticks around more than one series then I'd be fun to see but I think it's premature.