Zack Snyder's Rebel Moon

[Alatar]

Deconstruction is fine if one doesn't forget to make both the story and its characters appealing to the viewer. So far RM has failed in that area, and I don't believe his alternate longer cut will magically fix that. And given how little screen time is actually spent IN SPACE I don't think anyone (besides you of course) would have made the Space Opera deconstruction connection if Snyder wasn't talking it up so such.

WRT BvS, I never had an issue with his approach to the characters but rather the premise and execution. Putting Gotham and Metropolis across a bay from one another was just jarring and made Clark the world's worst "investigative reporter" ever for not knowing or acknowledging Batman's heroic past. And anyway you spin it, the "Save Martha" moment was just painfully bad. How much of that lies at Snyder's feet vs. Goyer and Terrio (the writers) I don't know, but that's where the movie failed for me. Well, there was Eisenberg's performance too lol...

It kind of is, in a way! Indirectly…

Netflix insisted that he make the two hour PG13 cuts, he says. I liken this to putting a wild creature in a zoo. He had to take his crazy idea of applying a Heavy Metal/pulp/B movie vibe to “Star Wars” (the “wild animal” in my analogy) and try to turn it into something acceptable to mainstream tastes, and that is emotionally and psychologically comforting and soothing in that way.

Lol, but um… well, we saw what happens. I’m always sad when I see a wild creature in a zoo. I can still appreciate and admire it. But emotionally oof!

But on the other hand, I’ll be the first to admit that the director’s cuts… which presumably are the creature in the wild… and by this I mean the version of the story that sounds like it could take place in Rick and Morty (and indeed Snyder as an artist is basically a lot like Rick, lol)… that crazy-ass version is still probably not what the average viewer wants to see!

So I really don’t know how this is going to go. In past movies Snyder has had Larry Fong, Chris Terrio, Han Zimmer, Michael Wilkinson, and Patrick Tatopoulos to help him assemble some very impressive cinematic experiences. And with Rebel Moon most viewers were expecting Star Wars except with a sort of 300, Watchmen, Man of Steel, and Batman v Superman flair and quality level.

But by doing so much himself for this film including writing and DPing, using an anamorphic lens to save money (blurry background = no CGI required), it’s not wowing people visually in the way that those four films I mentioned did.

I think all Snyder can really do here is create a more intimate experience of the story with his director’s cut. But his experience is that of a mad scientist, basically!

 

[Alatar]

I'm telling you this as a friend: you sound desperate. You sound like a kid in high school that's been dumped, and dumped badly, and he's looking for any kind of sign or indication that his girlfriend is gonna come back some day.

"Did you see when she looked at me in the hall after lunch? She looked at me, not at the floor, like usual. I think that means she's ready to start things up again!"

No. She's not. It's all in your head.

If Snyder really set out to "deconstruct Star Wars in a pulp fiction/B-movie/Heavy Metal style" then he failed. Miserably. All he did and all he has ever been capable of doing, was making a movie based on dozens of other movies that came before, and trying to throw in "cool" or "edgy" stuff. He's not an auteur. He's not deep. And neither is Star Wars.

There's not enough material in Star Wars to make a "deconstruction" of or to make a "sleazy version" of. You can make it a parody, like "Spaceballs." You can make your own Heavy Metal-style space opera like "Fifth Element."

How do you apply a "pulp vibe" to something that already has a "pulp vibe?" You want a sleazy, "adult" Star Wars? Just add gratuitous blood and titties. Apparently that's the sum of Snyder's "genius" right there...add some blood and titties. There are probably projects where adding that to Star Wars would work for a small audience. A video game like GTA set in SW, maybe? But other than that, all you'd end up with is pure garbage like Rebel Moon.

The only people vulgarizing Star Wars are Disney themselves. They've been doing it for ten years now and I think most people have had just about enough of it. The Last Jedi was vulgar. Snyder's tentacle porn is just harmless and silly.

Well, what you’re saying is from the perspective that your experience of Rebel Moon is that’s it’s objectively terrible, truly awful in its execution. And it’s not that I don’t understand what you’re saying because I really do. I get why people see it that way.

But obviously I have a different experience of it than most people, apparently. I think it’s fascinating to look at, and interesting to think about what he’s attempting. Whether he fails or succeeds is a subjective matter at the end of the day.

He’s shared a lot about what he’s doing with Rebel Moon in interviews since Part 2 released:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Snyderverse/s/D4iJMkPfrM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Snyderverse/s/24qbJx005U

https://www.reddit.com/r/Snyderverse/s/FLsA7GXKrj

That forms the basis of my observations.

And I honestly have no idea how well Snyder will pull it off with the director’s cut. In fact I have consistently stated that I think he’s doing something there (applying the Heavy Metal approach) that most viewers never asked for and don’t want.

To be fair, to really entertain what I’ve outlined is a huge ask, and not something that most viewers will feel inclined to do. In that sense from a business sense it’s probably incredibly poor judgment on Snyder’s part.

I’ll have to wait and see how much connects with me personally from the director’s cuts. If it helps validate in some way that I’m not simply a Snyder sycophant, I’m not keen on Sucker Punch, Owls of Ga’Hoole, and Army of the Dead. I appreciate the idea behind Sucker Punch and appreciate some aspects of it but it doesn’t resonate much with me deep down. And it’s an example of the “bloated-ness” that can ensue when Zack throws in the kitchen sink with an ambitious idea that he has. Owls is just not appealing to me in any way except visually (which is not enough!). I have no idea what he is trying to do with that movie but it doesn’t work at all for me. AotD is just kind of bland feeling to me. I don’t care a whole lot what is happening, unfortunately.

But I genuinely do kind of like the characters, story, and universe of Rebel Moon. It’s fun (for me). I’m not expecting it to be a masterpiece on the level of 2001: A Space Odyssey, lol. But as popcorn entertainment I can easily roll with it.

 

[Alatar]

Unlike what was achieved in MoS, BvS and -to a certain degree- ZSJL, I fail to see any deconstruction of the genre in Rebel Moon.
The DC movies are "deconstructions" in the sense that they ask these questions:

a) what would happen if such super-powered, god-like beings existed in our world? What would be a realistic reaction to them?
b) what would these characters realistically act like? What doubts and traumas would they have?

And then they give an answer. Whether you like the questions and the answers or not is a different matter.

In Rebel Moon there are no such parameters. It's exactly the same beats and clichés that we have become used to. Unfortunately not very well written. Rebel Moon (both parts) is like a collection of cover songs. It's Snyder doing his favourite scenes from a bunch of different movies in his style and throwing them together in two semi-coherent movies. I mean, there are scenes that are lifted directly from other movies.

I hope Snyder goes back to working with good, strong writers and producers, because he certainly needs them.

He’s shared a lot about what he’s doing with Rebel Moon in interviews since Part 2 released:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Snyderverse/s/D4iJMkPfrM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Snyderverse/s/24qbJx005U

https://www.reddit.com/r/Snyderverse/s/FLsA7GXKrj

But you’re right! In the interview at the bottom he explains that the PG13 cuts are his conception of what an “earnest” approach that is driven by focus groups looks like. (Which is fair game to attack him on zealously!) And his director’s cuts are where the actual deconstruction takes place.

But remember, he pitched a very subversive idea for the film. He’s taking that wild idea and toning it down in the PG13 cuts. It’s like taking a wild creature and putting it in a zoo.

 

[ironwez20]

No one is saying he would have.

Yes but his directors cuts are his “real vision and his vision is pretty much 4hr to six hr cuts . He can’t seem to make a comment any movie at even 3 hrs or 2. He always wants a directors cut so he can fit the slo mo in

 

[Otomofan]

This is Snyder’s fault for not properly explaining it when the film released. He did a little of it on opening weekend for BvS but it was a kind of glib explanation that didn’t impact anyone’s perceptions, I don’t think.

Snyder has since more fully explained that he took a lot of core ideas from the comics’ Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns applied that to the concept of Batman meets Superman for BvS. Those two runs/graphic novels from 1986 are the seminal deconstruction of comics. They both examine what it would look like if superheroes existed in our real world—and it’s not at all soothing, comforting, or idealized. That’s pretty much why Snyder gets tagged with being “dark and gritty”—or to be less kind “grimdark” or “edgelord” or whatever. Like if these superheroes actually existed it would be a mess. But Snyder has explained that he does this to test whether the superheroes can still hold up as heroic under that stress. He likens it to Star Trek’s “Kobayashi Maru.”

But anyway, Watchmen takes place in a parallel alternate universe! It’s based on the “many worlds” or multiverse concept. Doctor Manhattan agrees to be a super weapon for the US and that obviously results in major aftereffects, perhaps the biggest one being that Nixon gets elected for four terms. But otherwise there’s lots of other wrinkles. Comics are dominated by pirate stories, not superheroes. Electric cars are in use. The fast food market is dominated by Indian Food. The Hindenburg disaster never happened so dirigibles are everywhere in the skies. Etc.

And that basic idea is what is happening essentially in BvS. It’s not the canon world of comics! In this alternate universe “Lex Luthor” is Alexander Luthor Junior, a millennial apparently with Asperger’s and Tourette’s. Jimmy Olsen evidently becomes a CIA operative. It is Dick Grayson that gets brutally murdered by Joker, not Jason Todd. And so on.

I’ll be the first to agree that this makes a huge ask of the audience. The viewer is simply thrown into the this world and one has to try to make sense of it, like Alice in Wonderland. I think Batman’s line “The world only makes sense when you force it to” has to connect with that in some way.

You think that's the reason audiences didn't like BvS? Because Snyder didn't have a press release explaining that these aren't the same as the characters in the comic books?

Audiences have been well aware of that fact since 1989 when they saw that Batman was wearing black rubber and not tights, his parents were killed by the Joker, and that he was willing to kill. NOT the same as the comics.

And every other comic book movie since then has had that understanding baked in before anyone even bought tickets.

BvS was a failure cause it simply wasn't very good. The same way Rebel Moon is a failure cause it's practically unwatchable. The excuses you're making for Snyder's failures are getting utterly ridiculous.

What next....the movie flopped cause his dog ate his homework?

 

[T8OO]

Yes but his directors cuts are his “real vision and his vision is pretty much 4hr to six hr cuts . He can’t seem to make a comment any movie at even 3 hrs or 2. He always wants a directors cut so he can fit the slo mo in

Yes, just like Scott and Cameron. His original director's cut was 3h 30m for Justice League. BvS is 3 hours. Man of Steel is 2.5. A few are under 2 hours.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Longer is NOT necessarily better. That's what girls say, so I'm told.

 

[Shai]

Rebel Moon 1 & 2: The 2 worst movies I have seen in my 47 years of existence. And I have seen showgirls in the cinema back in the day. At least showgirls had lesbians. There is not one single original thought, dialogue, scene, image or idea in those 2 movies. Undefendable. This is not a deconstruction, nor an homage, nor an ode to pulp sci-fi. This is just garbage in its purest form.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Shai has spoken.

 

[T8OO]

Rebel Moon 1 & 2: The 2 worst movies I have seen in my 47 years of existence. And I have seen showgirls in the cinema back in the day. At least showgirls had lesbians. There is not one single original thought, dialogue, scene, image or idea in those 2 movies. Undefendable. This is not a deconstruction, nor an homage, nor an ode to pulp sci-fi. This is just garbage in its purest form.

Why did you watch the 2nd one?

 

[Shai]

Why did you watch the 2nd one?

To make sure there was no redemption from Zack Snyder. There is none.

 

[T8OO]

To make sure there was no redemption from Zack Snyder. There is none.

By that reasoning, you would have to watch everything he ever does.

 

[Shai]

By that reasoning, you would have to watch everything he ever does.

I did. I like Watchmen and Dawn of the dead. That is all. My conclusion is that he was doing ok when he was a younger guy adapting other people's script. After Hollywood started having faith in him and giving him full control it was over. He'll never make another good movie.

 

[Shai]

But if you meant why do I continue to watch his movies. Its mostly morbid curiosity and also for pure hate.

 

[T8OO]

But if you meant why do I continue to watch his movies. Its mostly morbid curiosity and also for pure hate.

It makes a change to see someone admit it.

 

[Alatar]

You think that's the reason audiences didn't like BvS? Because Snyder didn't have a press release explaining that these aren't the same as the characters in the comic books?

Audiences have been well aware of that fact since 1989 when they saw that Batman was wearing black rubber and not tights, his parents were killed by the Joker, and that he was willing to kill. NOT the same as the comics.

And every other comic book movie since then has had that understanding baked in before anyone even bought tickets.

BvS was a failure cause it simply wasn't very good. The same way Rebel Moon is a failure cause it's practically unwatchable. The excuses you're making for Snyder's failures are getting utterly ridiculous.

What next....the movie flopped cause his dog ate his homework?

Those that disliked BvS did so mainly because they expected a straight-ahead classical genre take—which was hugely popular when done in a grounded way a la Nolan’s Batman. But they didn’t get that at all.

What Snyder did by deconstructing Superman and Batman wasn’t “bad” objectively. Just because people don’t like something doesn’t make it bad, lol.

As for what constitutes ”objectively” good or bad, I’ll repost something I posted in the last couple of days on reddit:

“Objectively good” is a bit tricky for some things in life, cinema being one of them. I’m not saying it doesn’t theoretically exist, just that it’s a problematic thing due to how human brains have evolved. People tend to form personal biases that arise from the way ideas make them feel emotionally, combined with a sense of security that comes from affiliation with others who share the belief. And most of the operations of the brain fall outside of conscious awareness.

I can find people who truly believe heart and soul that either Donald Trump or Joe Biden are the greatest American presidents of their lifetime, and they can in fact present factual information to support their belief. Those who share the same beliefs are utterly convinced of those arguments. It then becomes apparent that the belief is driven by how it makes one feel versus existing on some sort of abstract ideal plane. Rather, they’re unconsciously asking the belief “what’s in this for me?”

It’s disconcerting because with some things, like a math problem, there is a single correct answer. And in the hard sciences we can prove or disprove things, etc.

I don’t want to belabor or over-intellectualize that point, but it is important… when trying to get at “objective truth”…

Maybe “successful” gets at it better than “good”? But a film is still ultimately something to be subjectively experienced by each individual human psyche and personality. Maybe we can say a film is successful—or not—in how terms of how it makes people feel, such that a consensus forms about it.

Anyway, you see him as making mistakes with the genre. But I think as he’s very aware of those conventions (tropes). And he is defying and dismantling them. He recently said in an interview that an example of this is having Superman kill Zod in order to protect humanity and Batman having towards the end of his crime fighting career become indifferent to killing criminals in self-defense in BvS. In Snyder’s mind he wanted to test what can remain heroic about the figure when they’re placed in such a situation.

I’m still fascinated by the possibility of what the PG13 cuts of Rebel Moon might represent in Snyder’s own mind. And that he is maybe doing something subversive with the PG13 cuts even though he describes them as sort of straightforward and “earnest.” I wonder if he’s showing from his perspective what happens to an extremely ambitious, quirky, offbeat, and “wild” artistic idea, i.e., that of taking “Star Wars” and applying a sci-fi/fantasy/pulp/B movie aesthetic to it which is the director’s cut—and then having to rather drastically limit, constrain, and tone that down. Like I’ve said it then becomes more of a creature on display in a zoo.

Now will he deliver the goods with the “creature in the wild” form of the idea in the director’s cuts, we’ll have to wait and see in August when they release.

And he may not! The director’s cuts of Rebel Moon might end up being like Sucker Punch. I think Sucker Punch is an example of where Snyder goes overboard with throwing too many ingredients into the stewpot. I admire what he’s trying to do at the core with Sucker Punch, which he has said he actually intended as satire. But anyway, in that film he’s taken a basic idea to such an extreme that there’s just too much to process. For me it’s not really enjoyable. It’s like surviving a bombardment, lol.

But I still give Snyder tremendous credit, and my continuing support as a viewer, for doing something that ambitious. That’s more interesting to me personally than the classical genre form. I’m not saying it’s “objectively better” than classical genre content. I’m saying that it satisfies me more emotionally and psychologically.

 

[ironwez20]

It makes a change to see someone admit it.

Oh stop. You think most of us are hate watching his movies? Or we just hate the guy? We like some of the films he came out with and give him chances with the movies he comes out with. It’s no one’s fault that we think they suck. I wouldn’t waste my time on something I hate. I didn’t watch rebel moon 2 cause the first one was terrible.

 

[ironwez20]

Those that disliked BvS did so mainly because they expected a straight-ahead classical genre take—which was hugely popular when done in a grounded way a la Nolan’s Batman. But they didn’t get that at all.

What Snyder did by deconstructing Superman and Batman wasn’t “bad” objectively. Just because people don’t like something doesn’t make it bad, lol.

As for what constitutes ”objectively” good or bad, I’ll repost something I posted in the last couple of days on reddit:

“Objectively good” is a bit tricky for some things in life, cinema being one of them. I’m not saying it doesn’t theoretically exist, just that it’s a problematic thing due to how human brains have evolved. People tend to form personal biases that arise from the way ideas make them feel emotionally, combined with a sense of security that comes from affiliation with others who share the belief. And most of the operations of the brain fall outside of conscious awareness.

I can find people who truly believe heart and soul that either Donald Trump or Joe Biden are the greatest American presidents of their lifetime, and they can in fact present factual information to support their belief. Those who share the same beliefs are utterly convinced of those arguments. It then becomes apparent that the belief is driven by how it makes one feel versus existing on some sort of abstract ideal plane. Rather, they’re unconsciously asking the belief “what’s in this for me?”

It’s disconcerting because with some things, like a math problem, there is a single correct answer. And in the hard sciences we can prove or disprove things, etc.

I don’t want to belabor or over-intellectualize that point, but it is important… when trying to get at “objective truth”…

Maybe “successful” gets at it better than “good”? But a film is still ultimately something to be subjectively experienced by each individual human psyche and personality. Maybe we can say a film is successful—or not—in how terms of how it makes people feel, such that a consensus forms about it.

Anyway, you see him as making mistakes with the genre. But I think as he’s very aware of those conventions (tropes). And he is defying and dismantling them. He recently said in an interview that an example of this is having Superman kill Zod in order to protect humanity and Batman having towards the end of his crime fighting career become indifferent to killing criminals in self-defense in BvS. In Snyder’s mind he wanted to test what can remain heroic about the figure when they’re placed in such a situation.

I’m still fascinated by the possibility of what the PG13 cuts of Rebel Moon might represent in Snyder’s own mind. And that he is maybe doing something subversive with the PG13 cuts even though he describes them as sort of straightforward and “earnest.” I wonder if he’s showing from his perspective what happens to an extremely ambitious, quirky, offbeat, and “wild” artistic idea, i.e., that of taking “Star Wars” and applying a sci-fi/fantasy/pulp/B movie aesthetic to it which is the director’s cut—and then having to rather drastically limit, constrain, and tone that down. Like I’ve said it then becomes more of a creature on display in a zoo.

Now will he deliver the goods with the “creature in the wild” form of the idea in the director’s cuts, we’ll have to wait and see in August when they release.

And he may not! The director’s cuts of Rebel Moon might end up being like Sucker Punch. I think Sucker Punch is an example of where Snyder goes overboard with throwing too many ingredients into the stewpot. I admire what he’s trying to do at the core with Sucker Punch, which he has said he actually intended as satire. But anyway, in that film he’s taken a basic idea to such an extreme that there’s just too much to process. For me it’s not really enjoyable. It’s like surviving a bombardment, lol.

But I still give Snyder tremendous credit, and my continuing support as a viewer, for doing something that ambitious. That’s more interesting to me personally than the classical genre form. I’m not saying it’s “objectively better” than classical genre content. I’m saying that it satisfies me more emotionally and psychologically.

Nobody expected a by the numbers genre take and what you call deconstruction I call character assassination and destroying everything they stand for. That’s not deep or thought provoking. A 14 yr old child could sit at his desk and write how Batman now brands people cause Robin died and it rains all day and he’s a man on the edge and kills without reason or thinking. And Superman is a sad edgy dude who will break a neck at the drop of a hat.

Again it’s just looking for something that clearly isn’t there. People wanted Batman vs Superman . Not Batman vs Superman. Plus Wonder Woman, plus Justice league building up, plus doomsday, plus death of Superman , plus terrible iteration of Lex , plus subplot b and c . It was a bloated mess with to many hands on it . You can like the film but that doesn’t make it a masterpiece or thought provoking

 

[T8OO]

Oh stop. You think most of us are hate watching his movies? Or we just hate the guy? We like some of the films he came out with and give him chances with the movies he comes out with. It’s no one’s fault that we think they suck. I wouldn’t waste my time on something I hate. I didn’t watch rebel moon 2 cause the first one was terrible.

No, not most.

 

[T8OO]

Nobody expected a by the numbers genre take and what you call deconstruction I call character assassination and destroying everything they stand for. That’s not deep or thought provoking. A 14 yr old child could sit at his desk and write how Batman now brands people cause Robin died and it rains all day and he’s a man on the edge and kills without reason or thinking. And Superman is a sad edgy dude who will break a neck at the drop of a hat.

Again it’s just looking for something that clearly isn’t there. People wanted Batman vs Superman . Not Batman vs Superman. Plus Wonder Woman, plus Justice league building up, plus doomsday, plus death of Superman , plus terrible iteration of Lex , plus subplot b and c . It was a bloated mess with to many hands on it . You can like the film but that doesn’t make it a masterpiece or thought provoking

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. And there are plenty of people who think BvS is Zack's masterpiece.

All that aside though, can you really say BvS isn't thought provoking? We are arguing about it here. An 8-year-old movie that isn't even the topic.